Avoidable Contact #9 – The impending failure of the mighty GT-R.
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Story by Jack Baruth, photo by “bubba sideways”
I can’t count the number of times during my long and painful BMX career when I sat on my bike, sized up some dirt jump, wooden ramp, or fifteen-stair drop-off, and thought long and hard about how much I’d regret what I was about to do, should it go wrong. Most of the time, my pessimism was unfounded – I’d clear the jump, bound over the obstacle, land the drop. Every once in a while, however, I’d lose my balance, slip a pedal, or just plain run out of talent, and for a tiny, sickening fraction of a second, my breath would catch in my throat before I hit the ground to the accompanying “crack” of a broken bone. I never actually heard a bone break, mind you; it always felt like a really sharp pinch in a place where no pinching should be possible. The memory of that little “pinch” is what made me sit on my bike for an extra moment or two before cranking off towards disaster. There were times I’d have liked to just sit there until it was time to go home, but the difference between the rider and the poser is that the poser never stops just sitting there on the bike. You’ll never get hurt just sitting there.
If I don’t make the prediction I’m about to unleash – if I turn this column towards a safer topic, like E85 pricing or trail-braking techniques for FWD race cars – I won’t get hurt. There won’t be any hate mail. Zerin, my long-suffering editor, won’t get any calls from the manufacturers. It’ll be business as usual. I should really shut up right now.
Oh, the hell with that. Let’s pedal towards the jump and make a prediction. I believe that Nissan is making a potentially serious error in importing the new GT-R to the United States and Canada. I believe that they will eventually regret doing so, and that the GT-R will join that time-honored long list of big-money automotive marketing mistakes that contains everything from the Edsel to the Lincoln Blackwood. Yeah, yeah, I know. Some of my dear readers are already searching for the “Respond” button at the bottom of this column so they can make unpleasant and biologically improbable suggestions regarding my momma, while the more action-oriented among you are already GoogleMapping a very special trip for the purpose of beating my face in at the NASA season opener. (It’s April 12, at Mid-Ohio, if you must know.) If there’s anybody left who simply wants to know the reasons behind this particular piece of prophecy… you’ll just have to put the chainsaw down and keep reading.
Before we talk about failure, we have to define what we mean by success. From Nissan’s perspective, I think it’s fair to say that the GT-R will “succeed” if it accomplishes the following pair of tasks:
- The GT-R must create a “halo effect” that leads to increased showroom traffic, greater sales of less-expensive models, particularly performance models, and a greater and more positive awareness of Nissan and its products among the general public and the enthusiast market.
- The GT-R must break even in the North American market. Failing that, it shouldn’t lose too much money for Nissan’s North American operations.
Note that nowhere in there did we talk about selling a zillion GT-Rs, or dominating trackdays across the land, or cutting into Corvette and Porsche sales. We didn’t talk about that stuff because nobody with any sense thinks any of it’s actually going to happen. You see, there’s no real long-term market for the GT-R in North America. To understand why, you have to look at the truly successful entries in the $50,000 – $100,000 performance car market. There are really only two, and we’ve already named them. Both Porsche and the Corvette brand have hundreds of thousands of devoted fans, many of whom can actually afford their products. There are millions of men and women in the United States and Canada who grew up with 911 Turbo or C4 Corvette posters on their wall, and they’re now at an age where they can purchase the cars and enjoy them. There is a strong secondary market for used Porsches and Corvettes, encompassing everything from lightly used Carrera GTs to salvage-title ‘84 Cross-Fire-Injection C4s. Not only is there an entire club for people who want to race Porsches on weekends – the Porsche Club of America – there’s an entire second club for people who think the people in the first club are insufferable pricks, and they call it the Porsche Owners’ Club. Meanwhile, there are so many people spending their lives restoring Corvettes that they have multiple sources to certify them – NCRS and Bloomington Gold. In my little hometown of Powell, Ohio, which barely has ten thousand residents, there are at least thirty dues-paying members of PCA, including myself, and there are dozens of Corvettes prowling the streets in the summers. The sheer magnitude of Corvette and Porsche devotion out there is almost unimaginable, and as a result, the two brands combine to sell more than sixty thousand new sports cars in the United States every year.
What’s the Nissan GT-R’s market base? Well, it’s primarily made up of people who play Gran Turismo and its descendants, plus a smattering of kids who thought the car with the Impala-esque taillights in 2Fast 2Furious was pretty cool. Most of these people live in the basements of their parents’ homes. Do you see the problem with the idea of marketing a $70,000 car to people who still live with their parents and who spend all night on XBOX Live? If you don’t, allow me to point it out for you: These kids don’t have any money. They may be tremendously knowledgeable car enthusiasts and very nice people, but when I was seventeen years old, I was a knowledgeable car enthusiast too, and I don’t remember buying any $70,000 cars with my minimum-wage earnings from working the parts counter at David Hobbs BMW.
“Oh, Jack, you’re being deliberately ignorant.” I can hear you now. “There are plenty of wealthy, adult car enthusiasts who know and respect the GT-R.” Well, that’s true. There are plenty of Google employees, “Gold Collar” kids who, although they live with their parents at the age of 27, are earning a GT-R payment by working at Abercrombie & Fitch, and bored rich people who will buy anything that’s new and hot. Hey, there were a few people who laid out a hundred grand for imported Motorex R34 Skylines, right? All of those people might buy a GT-R. The only problem is that very few of these people spent their youths dreaming of the GT-R, and if they did, they were dreaming of the icy-cool, JDM-to-the-max R33 or R34, not this porky monster G35x that Nissan is preparing to bring to these shores. A lot of these people are going to get their seventy grand together and be struck by the undeniable fact that they could buy a Z06 Corvette or Carrera 3.6 with that money! For kids who dreamed of hammering a Nine Eleven down the autobahn, the prospect of slumming down to the Nissan dealer and buying a Nissan from the Nissan dealer who sells Nissans (have I repeated “Nissan” enough here? I hope it’s enough to make the point) is just not gonna happen.
You know what, though? It doesn’t matter. It really doesn’t. Nissan can sell 1,500 GT-Rs a year to Silicon Valley geeks and rich kids who want to indulge their Brian Earl Spilner fantasies, no problem. The Acura NSX sold pretty well at first, too, mostly due to the novelty factor and the fact that people were tired of having their Ferrari 348s towed out of their garages twice a month. All this talk about doing five thousand units a year is sheer bravado, meant to convince the dealers to spend upwards of $300K each to upgrade their shops for “GT-R capability”. This will be a low-volume car, poking along at the bottom of the sales sheet with its distant cousin, the Infiniti Q45, until the cost of a new-generation EPA certification causes Nissan to knock it off the price list. It isn’t the prospect of slow sales that makes me pessimistic about the GT-R. Rather, the real problem, from Nissan’s perspective, is what it will do to their brand, their fans, and their existing cars.
Let’s be honest: the greatest thing about the R34 Nissan Skyline GT-R was that we couldn’t buy it here. In countries where you could buy Nissan’s super-sedan with little difficulty, such as the UK, customers were staggeringly indifferent to “Godzilla”, preferring instead to have a nice Porsche, or maybe a hairy-chested TVR. The only place where the Skyline sold well was Japan, for the same reason the Mustang GT sells well over here: the price/performance ratio was right and it was a domestic-market hero for angry young kids with time on their hands and a few yen in their pockets. Still, Nissan made some hay over here with the legend, which greatly surpassed the reality. Go ahead, tell me that when the “Spec V” Sentra SE-R came out, you didn’t think it was cooler for having that badge on the back. I sure as hell did, and I know I wasn’t alone. Plus, those Cheetos-munching PlayStation addicts of whom we spoke earlier might not have a GT-R’s worth of scratch, but they do have parents who are willing to buy ‘em Sentras with the “sport package”. The actual merits of the Skyline were utterly irrelevant – not when the closest you can get to one is clicking “Buy This Car” in GT4. As the old quote goes, “When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.”
Will that legend, of improbably fast ‘Ring times, thousand-horsepower “Big Birds”, and parking-garage races in Tokyo, still sell Sentras and Altimas when the real GT-R is sitting right next to them on the showroom floor? The answer is a resounding No. It’s one thing to be a Sentra-driving GT-R fan when the real GT-R is safely on the other side of a whole ocean, but what happens when that same kid drives his Sentra to the local community college and sees that his rich-kid classmate has an R35 GT-R? We haven’t even considered what the effect will be on Nissan’s current performance flagship, the fierce and fantastic 350Z. The minute the first GT-R hits these shores, the 350Z becomes the “Nissan with panties”, tucked sadly in the shadow of its mighty stablemate. And with a forty-thousand-dollar price gap between the two, it’s hard to imagine too many 350Z owners trading up to the Car Formerly Known As Skyline. The “halo effect” of the GT-R is going to be very dim in your local Nissan showroom.
I can’t help but think that Nissan had a better option than bringing us a 3800-pound Angry Catfish with a Porsche-sized Monroney slapped on the window; namely, a 500Z. We all know the FM platform will accept the soul-stirring Infiniti quad-cam V8 – it’s already resident in the FX45 and M45 – and there’s no reason a little light tuning wouldn’t result in four hundred horsepower, easy. Add the Track Package Brembos, seam-weld the chassis in the fashion of the Nismo Z, and charge $45K for it. Maybe they could widen the tires a bit for those of us who find the stock Z just a little too reluctant to turn in sometimes. Sure, it might not beat the 997 Turbo around the ‘Ring, but it would hang with an LS3 ‘Vette on Saturday night, and that’s a lot more important on Main Street USA, where the buyers are.
Of course, I could be wrong about all of this. It could all turn out in storybook fashion. The dealers won’t mark ‘em up so high they never leave the lots, (see GTO, Pontiac, 2004 for more details on this self-defeating strategy) the basement-dwelling hobbits will earn magic sacks of cash in World of Warcraft, enabling them to buy a healthy allocation of GT-Rs year after year, the mandatory annual “tuneup” won’t piss everybody off so badly they dump their Not A Skyline and buy a Z06 after all… it could all happen according to Nissan’s plan. I’m a bit of a Datsun/Nissan fan, you know. My first car was a bad-assed two-tone 200SX fastback. I made the hilariously stupid decision to sell Infinitis when I graduated from school simply because I loved the Q45 and I wanted to have one as a demo. (That wish was never granted, by the way, as it was hard enough to sell those cars without six thousand miles on them.) I still smile when I see a young person in a 350Z. It reaffirms my hope that automotive enthusiasm in this country hasn’t gone the way of the Prius, I mean, the dodo. Nissan makes good cars, and I think the GT-R is going to be a good car. I’m having a hard time swallowing all the hype, but make no mistake: the people who do purchase a GT-R are unlikely to regret their purchase.
In the era of the aforementioned Toyota Pious, it’s also important to recognize the magnitude of the chance Nissan has taken by building this R35 model. The GT-R is a moon shot of sorts, an honest attempt to build the best car possible, consequences be damned. I admire that sort of effort; in fact, the last time I saw a car like this – a car which promised to transcend the boundaries of branding in pursuit of matchless excellence – I put not one, but two examples of that car in my driveway. Great cars, too. They show exactly what can be done when a mass-market manufacturer builds a cost-no-object eighty-thousand-dollar vehicle and ignores all the issues of despicable dealers, non-existent brand prestige, and a vanishingly small pool of buyers. You could say that the builder of my cars had a terrifying set of double jumps in front of them, and they pedaled as hard as they could, knowing they might crash but hoping they would soar over the doubters. It was a tremendous effort, and I really, really love the result, my perfect pair of Phaetons…
Hey Jack,
Excellent column. I can’t help but half agree with you. Personally I’m not a nissan fanboy, or a fan of the 350z. I do however like the prospect of the GT-R coming over here and it’ll definitely be a badass ride. One can’t help but wonder if you are in fact correct, and despite the fact that the car is obviously badass, it might be a tough sell to the demographic in that price range. Anyway, you’ll prolly catch alotta hate for this article, but F*** the haters, it was one helluva read.
Looking forward to the next in the car dealership series…..
Wayne
Bitter Phaeton owners of the world unite.
Excellent article. While I wouldn’t turn away a GT-R, I find it a bit odd. First of all, I would have probably rather seen it as an Infiniti. To me it would have made more sense. The other oddity is that this is a “sports car” yet it is quite large and heavy. Granted so is my Ford Mustang, but that’s a different story. My views may not be shared by others, but those are my thoughts.
Jack! i can’t believe you forgot to mention the Subaru SVX or “subaru sux” as my co-worker/SVX owner friend calls it. i think we all know how that one ended.
regardless, great stuff as always.
Only one tiny problem I have with this article -
3. The average game player is 33 years old and has been playing games for 12 years.
http://www.theesa.com/facts/top_10_facts.php
The image of the 17 year old playing XBox live all night isn’t really an accurate stereotype anymore. If nothing else, those gamers that might have been 17 when GT2 came out are now 25 and (although still unlikely) it’s possible that many of them can swing the cash for a GT-R.
I will agree with the overall assessment though, that the GT-R doesn’t have the huge fanbase of the Corvette or Porsche (I certainly didn’t go out and buy a GT-R calendar last year, thank you very much :p), but I think it’s larger than you might expect and the number of people in the position to buy one who are familiar with it is larger than you might expect as well.
sounds-like a dipshit Germano-phile mouthbreather threatened by car that ain’t made by the Aryan brotherhood.
The only car made by the Aryan Brotherhood was that continuation Shelby built in the Texas prison system. Maybe I didnt read the whole thing but I dont think the Cobra got mentioned?
Right, the car will do well, just in small numbers.
Yes its very expensive, but this car has gotten TONS of free hype for years.
Even euro biased magas like automobile mag Nissan GTR have had positive reviews.
Definately a good article but I completely disagree mainly based on what Scott says (4 posts above). You have to remember that a lot of ‘vette and porshe enthusiasts are babyboomers, and the demographic for the GTR are not the babyboomers or generation x.
As for your argument about the sentra next to the GTR, well dont forget that there will be only about 2000 GTRs made for US and Canada every year, so i’m pretty sure the sentra dude wil appreciate catching a glimpse of the GTR.
Also I own a 300zx (Z32) and even though my car is 15 years old i would never be ashamed of pulling next to a GTR. If however i was driving riced up civic then maybe i’ld die a little inside. So you have to understand the mindsets of nissan enthusiasts and ricers.
nevertheless, i would have agreed with you if the GTR was mass-produced but it is not so the demand for it will definately drive its sales and the halo effect.
Couple of things I think you are missing to an otherwise good article. First thing is expect Nissan Motor USA to cancel warranties left and right if they think your GTR has been on the track (see Evo and STI). So now I’ve got an 80k GT car that I can’t use 90% of the capabilities of and it doesn’t have the name cache of BMW, Porsche, M-B or possibly even Corvette (esp Z06).
I don’t know…
There’s one thing i definitely agree with: the 350z just got punched in the face. If you’re in an area where people are wealthy enough for there to be GTRs (so there’s a place that sells one) you just won’t get any respect in a 350z. Which is a pretty poor reason to not buy one, but we’re not dealing with logical pro/con arguments here.
But: the thing is the GTR isn’t a legend just because it’s legendary. The legend is REAL, and this new one is no exception if what we’re hearing is true. It really DOES eat Porsches and Corvettes for breakfast. And remember that the “base” model Skyline GTRs were only the start. The GTR embodied continuous improvement, with the last one (the Z-tune) being MILES faster than the “first” one (the basic homologated R32).
Also, i too think you’re underestimating the demand, especially re: the video game fans. Are there enough of those in this country to sell 5k a year? I don’t think it’s unreasonable.
Also, as i understand it, the old Skylines were not REALLY sold outside of Japan except in Australia, where they did pretty well.
@Winter
I don’t see how the GT-R is going to “eat Corvettes for breakfast”.
The GT-R has a Weight/power ratio of 8.1/1 the C6 has 7.2/1 and finally the C6 Z06 has 6.2/1. So unless the GT-R has magical pixie dust sprinkled on it the Corvette is still faster.
If Nissan were trying to sell the GT-R in the same way they sold the 350Z in the US, I’d agree with you, they’d fail. But they’re not, they’re going to stick to the halo car ethic and keep supplies low; 2000 units a year for North America will keep supplies low and demand high for a long time. This is the strategy Nissan used for the 350Z in the UK, and it worked like a charm; when I bought mine, I had to wait nearly 9 months for it back in 2004 and I understand you’re still talking 4 -5 months in 2008, which is pretty impressive (helps resale too). Oh, and while you’re correct we could get the last Skyline in the UK, they priced it £15K above the BMW M3 (last gen), or about US$30K in today’s money, which kind of explains the indifference (along with lots of cheap grey imports).
The other factor is price; I think maybe in the US the price sits in the ‘Vette/base 911 area; here in the UK its 911 Turbo performance for M3 money, and that’s making a lot of people sit up take notice, despite badge-snobbery being far worse here than in the US.
NB. @Mark: weird isn’t it? But I’ve just read a test in this month’s Car magazine where the GT-R proves to be faster on the road and on the track than a 911 turbo, and that car has a way superior power-to-weight ratio too. The GT-R gives away over 350lbs, and 4bhp to the Porsche, and yet was faster to 60, faster to 100 and a second a lap faster around Rockingham racetrack in England. Don’t ask me how, but this isn’t hype.
Toyota couldn’t sell the fabulous MKIV Supra at almost half the price, and it had a devoted following coming on the heels of the previous three generations of that car. Mazda priced the FD RX-7 right out of the game, and it WAS half the price.
Only sheer stubborness and the quasi-exotic nature of the NSX kept it on the market, and you’ll all note that no replacement is charging over the horizon any time soon. For those with short memories, that’s a car that was designed nearly 20 years ago.
The Generation Xbox kids will scream bloody murder and want to see a Jack Baruth character being waterboarded in the next Grand Theft Auto game, but he’s precognizant when it comes to the ultimate fate of the GTR.
Having said that, just like it’s Supra, RX-7 and NSX forebearers, it’s going to make for a fine used car.
I can only prove you wrong using currently-available evidence.
I ordered a GT-R, and others who I personally know that did the same are between 29-55 years old, don’t play “Gran Turismo Playstation video games,” and earn a normal living. In my opinion it is stupid to blow ~$70k on a car if you indeed live at home with your parents, and I’ve made comments on that exact subject.
But for those of us who have tired of overpaying for BMW’s half-baked iDrive interface and want a true 911 Turbo competitor at 60% of the price, this is the car.
The GTR is definitely not hype. It may lose in basic statistics (such as power to weight) and it may weight two tons… but it does have magic pixie dust: two tons of technology. It also has some of the best aerodynamics of any road car ever and its 4wd system makes up a lot of time. It does the Nurburgring in 7:38 which is faster than a 911 TURBO, faster than a Z06, faster than a freaking Veyron (though the Veyron really does suffer for its weight), faster than a LOT of stuff really.
I guess the PERCEPTION that it’s, eg, slower than a Corvette will hurt it…
We’ll see what happens once they release an “evolution”/”vspec”/whatever they’re going to call it. Supposedly it’s going to lose 300-350 pounds, which ought to help out quite a bit.
Regarding the different mark: i am definitely waiting for these things to start hitting the second hand market. Hopefully a lot of wealthy jerks buy them as status symbols and then ditch them as soon as they’re not “cool” anymore. Then we can get them for cheap! Or that’s my theory…
Just so we’re all clear here: The GT-R does *not* run the ‘Ring in 7:38. That was a publicity stunt for Edmunds using a prototype car. When von Saurma drove the production car, it ran a 7:50, which is approximately what the Z06 runs.
I won’t comment on the US market.
But here in the UK 2 of the 10 dealers already have pre- orders for over half of the first year allocation.
This car outperforms Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche at 1/2 to 1/4 of the price and will be far more reliable.
I think you are picking up on the young kid sterotype too much. At the Geneva launch it was clear to me that this car has crossed all class and age boundaries.
Judging by the overwelming positive press I would be very surprised if this car was a flop.
Time will tell but I believe history is being made…
First some facts about me.
I have played every issue of Gran Turismo. I also have both Forza’s, play Xbox live a few nights a week and have (regrettably) played World Of Warcraft. I am 25, and live in my own place. I do not eat Cheeto’s or much any junk food. In fact I am consistently at a 6-8% body fat. I do not sweat pump cheese. I currently own a 2004.5 350z which I have set up as a track car. I’ve gone through Skip Barber and go to as many open track days as possible. I’ve been a car junkie since I was 14 or so. (Much of my introduction came from Gran Turismo.)
All of this being said, I am fully intent on buying a GT-R when the initial hype wave and stealership markup war recedes. I appreciate this article, and sadly I have to say, I agree with the major premise. The GT-R is unlikely to lift the Nissan brand to new heights of prestige in this country. I don’t think that is Nissans fault per say, but rather the fact that people here don’t seem to be able to look past labels. But I digress.
I DO think the Nissan will sell, and I do not think anyone who sees the $70k sitting in their bank account will feel compelled to buy a 911 or Z06. I’ve had the ability to buy either of those cars for a few years now and I can say neither really does it for me. This car is almost certainly being sold at a loss per unit, and thus I agree it is a bad business move for Nissan since I don’t see the Halo effect taking off. But I disagree that anyone who is a car enthusiast with some degree of money will skip this car for a 911 or Z06.
You mentioned the car enthusiasts who grew up with 911 turbo and C4 posters on their walls. Well I grew up with a GT-R background on my desktop and I’ll be more than happy to take my car into service next to a Versa. Plenty of Porsche dealerships share service departments with their Audi and Volkswagen brethren at synergy dealerships. (See Bramen Automotive Palm Beach) I’m not a huge fan of service waiting rooms with golddigging bimbo’s who drive automatic 997 911 turbos with the seat jammed up to the steering wheel and a VW beetle flower vase in the dash anyway. (I’m not kidding.. I have seen such vomit inducing filth.)
I agree with many points of your article and the overall opinion that it is almost certainly a bad business move. But that’s what makes me love this car even more, like you love your Phaetons. I’m thrilled that I can say “Oh I drive a Nissan” and watch the judgmental misconceptions run rampant across the faces of the hordes of jackassery that make up palm beach county. I love that the car was built with a “screw it, we can go as fast as Germany and Italy for half the price” attitude. Once the bench racers are gone I’m willing to be the car WILL do much of what it says.
From one car enthusiast to another, here’s to hoping that this banzai attempt turns out better than the Phaeton. But I doubt it.
~JB
Which auto brand do you run? It really sounds like you are an expert on financial and marketing strategies in the auto industry. With that business savey you must be what, a Ford VP? You’ve come a long way from BMX rider to auto exec.
wow. this is really sad. you have only one point. its about gt-r making nissan making more sales or not for the rest of nissans lineup. otherwise the GT-R is a far better car but stupid stuburn car retards wont let it be better because of there fan boy attitudes.
the GT-R will make some better sales, but overall i agree that nissans linup isnt actually steller. they need to introduce DCT to the linup and reduce the weight of the cars. sofar they have one of the best engines which is very compairiable to other car manufactures (which btw have to enginer the engines better to get the same performance out of them as the nissan ones (exlcuding a few)).
The argument is flawed in that the cars he compares it to are all cars that are meant to be main-line cars that need to sell tens of 1000’s to be considered successful. Yes, 1500 Rx7’s would be a failure, 1500 Supra’s would be a failure, 1500 corvettes would be a colossal failure. The GT-R is a limited production car and the target of 1500 is EASILY obtainable. Like the Audi R8, limited production for a limited few who appreciate what the car is and does…NOT for the masses.
Jack – Just to be clear here, you’re splitting hairs over 7:38 vs. 7:50.
WHO THE F”CK CARES?
I didn’t buy a car over a presumably impossible task – there’s no chance in hell I could run the ‘Ring in 8:50 or even 9:50 (with traffic).
The reality is that this car is damn fast, has decent amenities, and will be a success so long as Nissan doesn’t overproduce it.
And even if it isn’t a “success” by your standards in the USA, get out of your Utopian Blogosphere fantasyland and take a trip to the United Kingdom. Or even – God forbid – Russia.
This guy is out in left field…a BMX racer turned automotive consumer buying expert??…give me a break.
I run sales and marketing for a software company…I can buy any porsche, ferrari, etc. that i want…I want the GT-R for a variety of reasons…all that lead me away from the other cars. I also know for a fact that at the same dealer that i am buying from there is a lawyer and heathcare VC…who could also buy any car that they want.
The fact of the matter is this moron Jackie boy is just a has been BMXer who is still trying to make enough $$ to cover his monthly nut…after reading up on him I firmly believe that the only reason he wrote this crap was to stir up the hornets nest of feedback he knew it would generate…all in order to feed his ego and to help him to perpetrate his personal vision of himself as an “automotive journalist”
Jackie boy is using this story and associated responses to vindicate his impending GT-R purchase!! We are simply supporting his decision with all of this feedback!!
These things said enough time wasted on this…
Gtr owners, and prospective owners are Gran Turismo gamer junkies?
Thats a ridiculous statement.
I can only assume that because its a) japanese b) embraces technology with twin clutch all wheel drive transmission, electronically adjustable struts, electronically adjustable shift firmness/speed that all off a sudden its a Tuner type dream car out of a Gran Turismo game?
Sure, I played Gran Turismo as a kid, and im just about in the right age range for it. Im 32. But when I played Gran Turismo, I dont think I even drove a GTR. Even if I did, I wouldnt let a game guide me to purchasing the car.
The REAL world specs, power potential, RESALE value, fit and finish of this car is what sold me. 0-60 in 3.3 seconds ? 11.7 @121 mph quarter mile time all in FACTORY form!? Resale value of a Japanese performance car ? Thats all why I have ordered my GTR already.
I think its totally ridiculous to consider people who are buying this car are people with lots of money in their 20’s, and Gran Turismo players. That stereotype sounds a bit condescending/hateful, and I think peoples opinions when this car gets more reviews / track time will DRASTICALLY change for the better (for those of you who havent already seen the light)
@Your Daddy
While all of your statements that you are a salesman for a software company are great (being nothing but a salesman for engineers’ hard work is nothing really to be so proud of), you obviously misunderstood the entire concept of the article. The “BMXer” never claims that the GT-R will not outperform ferrari, porsche, etc. He makes a valid claim that this is a bad business move by Nissan. While I somewhat disagree about his claims that the GT-R will not sell, the point that this will not create a halo effect is certainly valid. I agree with many other posts here that the GT-R is the new generation NSX. It will make a nice used car when you find that it is not “cool” anymore.
@ Charles in Charge
While your post makes little to no sense…I will elaborate on one point that you attempted to make, but didn’s do such a good job on…and that is that the BMXer is in no position to make any sort of claim related to the GT-R being a bad business move by Nissan…he simply does not have the insight, experience or mental wherewithal to do so. The GT-R’s results have and will speak for themselves…naysayers and the uninformed please step to the left.
And hey Charles, if you are an engineer then good for you…I need behind the scenes tools like you in the toolbox to help me get done the more important business at hand…good for you!!!
Your Daddy:
I like your style. When your GT-R hits the ground, why don’t you bring it out to a road course and we can run heads-up for a little cash. I’ll bring something completely inferior, like a Viper or 997.
Should be easy money for you.
to Charles: This is HALO car. It will bring BODIES into the SHOWROOM. To that end (regard?), it IS a good business move. Does it matter if they lose money on each GT-R? Does it matter that Microsoft lost money on each early XBOX? No.
I would also reiterate my point above – you can’t look at the USA and make a determination that this is good or bad business. The [Skyline] GT-R (as a whole) is a legend. Does this DISTILL the “legend” ? Not one bit.
to Jack: Where/who are you going to borrow the Viper or 997 from (I’m assuming a blogger doesn’t have a garageful of exotics) ? Will that prove your original point that the GT-R was bad business for Nissan? Or are you getting sucked into a flame-war?
Hey Josh,
I don’t necessarily have a *garageful* of exotics – I have a few Porsches but none of them are newer than 2004 models. I can put my hands on some interesting cars, though.
As for proving a point or flame wars – it’s neither of those; I just enjoy a race, and this guy appears to have a ton of money and a new GT-R right around the corner. I’m sure he’s up for a challenge
Jack,
I do see where you are comming from, however I think you’re a little bit out of touch with the crowd that the GT-R appeals to. Let me use myself as an example. I’m going on 30 and I’m by no means a “gold collar” rich kid (little bit of offense taken from the implications of your post
). My family was middle class growing up (as were most of my friends). Through hard work I have put myself in a financial position in which I’m capable of owning not only my own home (I moved out of my parents before going to college and have never looked back thank you very much) but planning on purchasing a GT-R as well. I have long since respected the GT-R and have eagerly anticipated the release of a US version GT-R. I plan to purchase a GT-R perhaps during the 2010 model year as the construction of my new house is prohibiting me from picking one up when they’re released. Three of my friends have similar plans and come from similar backgrounds. We’re hardly descended from great amounts of money and have worked very hard for everything we have. We’re not boy racers and think the Fast and the Furious is as ridiculous as the next serious auto enthusiast. We’re weekend racers (NASA, SCCA in my case and WERA in the case of my fellow aspiring GT-R owners). We love a good game of Call of Duty, Halo, or even Forza on XBox live. We grew up playing video games since the late 80’s and feel no need to stop now that we’re approaching our 30’s and are all married.
Pardon me for not being acquainted with your racing or BMX career, and for not knowing how old you are, but it seems to me that you’re drastically misjudging the demographics of video game players and car enthusiasts. Your post smacks of someone who is out of touch with the fact that there is a VERY large segment of society that has grown up playing video games and now finds themselves in their late 20’s and early 30’s continuing the past time. I find that everyone I know picks up an XB360/Wii/PS3 controller from time to time. In addition if one were to nitpick, Gran Turismo (the catalyst for the GT-R’s popularity according to you) is a PlayStation title anyway and has never been playable on an XBox system. I point this out not as internet troll detail fault-finding, but to illustrate how out of touch you seem to be with the video game market in general and specifically those currently approaching their 30’s with cash to burn and nothing but increases to their income in the future.
What’s more, I find it laughable that you would compare the GT-R to a Carrera 3.6 when in many road tests the GT-R seems to be very handily producing better lap times than 911 Turbo’s and even the mighty GT2 (which puts you squarely into a price range that is almost double that of the GT-R’s 70K). Again, further example that you seem to have taken in much of the GT-R “hype” without bothering to research how the car is performing. If people can look past the narcissism driving their love of P-cars and put down 70K for the car that performs the best in the ~70K price range, instead of the one that has the most prestegious emblem on its nose, the GT-R will do splendidly.
Finally, to anyone criticizing Nissan for not releasing the GT-R under the Infinity brand name….. Please go place your over-sensitive luxury-craving buttock’s in the seat of a luxury sedan. The GT-R is a sports car and I, in my humble opinion, am supremely happy that Nissan seems to have given the U.S. enough credit to hope that we can see past the brand name to the actual performance that we’re purchasing and the function that it is intended for. The GT-R is the flgship of Nissan performance and should therefore display the Nissan badge proudly as opposed to a different Infinity badge that Japanese corporate types think is more appealing to the average American that requires more space, less responsive handling, and more cushioned seats for our big, fat, comfort-craving asses.
What I think it boils down to Jack is whether or not there are more of us than you. I think there are, and I think the GT-R will do just fine (well enough to meet your #1 and #2 criteria at least).
With all of that said, your blog entry is certainly thought provoking and I can’t help but agree that your average 17 year old would definitely want a GT-R and would not be able to afford it. Where we differ is that I think there are a whole lot more late 20 somethings and early 30 somethings who also would want a GT-R, but are more than capable of purchasing it
RE: the 7:50 lap with the GTR.
SportAuto times are known to be slower than manufacturer claims. Or are you suggesting their driver, who does a couple laps in a car he’s not familiar with, is going to be as fast as a manufacturer driver who has run hundreds of laps in the car?
You suggest the car they tested was a ringer, but let’s have some proof beyond “well, some other guy was slower”.
If you want to use SportAuto times i have no problem with that, though. Let’s just make sure we actually use SportAuto times, not SportAuto for the GTR and manufacturer claims for everything else:
GTR: 7:50
New 911 Turbo: 7:54
C6 Z06: 7:49
As compared to several seconds (7+) faster for the manufacturer claims for each.
You people are missing the point. If you purchase this car you are going to modify the hell out of it. After the mods, it will not only kill the vette and porsche respectively, it will probably kill you and your passenger too. I mean, you are talking over 500 horsepower available to any average joe or jane. That’s scary. In fact if I lived on a house that was on a corner of a busy intercetion, I’d be reinforcing my front yard with iron bars and cinderblocks so some maniac in their 500+ hp GT-R doesn’t drive into my living room in the middle of the night after a street race w/ a vette. I guarantee over the next couple of months, when the GT-R debuts, you are gonna see some high speed crashes….this car will induce irresponsibility…more so than any other production car …the mitsu EVO X modified w/over 400+ hp will be the next ricer to be the next mid-priced street race king….
Blah blah blah blah. If you mod car X, it will beat car Y. That argument is about as pointless and worthless as the U.S. Dollar these days. What if I modified the Vette? Hell, what if I spent 35k and built a Fox Body Mustang with the intent of being a track machine to beat the GT-R. Please don’t use those arguments when talking about car comparisons.
By the way, I think Nissan is going to be VERY VERY strict about what modifications are done to these cars. Remember, you MUST bring the car in for a yearly check-up to keep the warranty intact. I don’t know how many people out there are willing to modify their car just to have a $75,000 uber high-tech car with no warranty. Use your heads when making comments folks.
Why Jack Baruth and others elsewhere brought this topic?
Because it is totally unbelievable that a pig heavy GTR (610 lbs more than the Z06, as per R&T article http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=6594) can win over 997 Turbo and C6 Z06 with a 5.3 seconds lap advantage.
Jack and other people here have years of racing experience. Weight is the enemy number one in racing.
Pigs Never Fly!
Please explain how is the GTR a better handling car with that huge extra weight?
But don’t even bother to mention AWD. Traction is improved by AWD, but not handling.
GTR does not have torque vectoring, it has just a 1.5 LSD for the rear. Z06 has a 1.5 LSD as well.
If AWD would be such a winner, then 997 Turbo should easy beat a RWD car like the Z06 all the time, which is not the case.
The tires on the GTR are better, but not that much. We don’t have anything better for compare, so I will use what we have – the treadwear: 200 on the Dunlop for GTR, 220 on the Good Year for Z06.
I will give my humble opinion: GTR has one of the best transmissions in the world. But I don’t believe that it would matter as much as 5.3 seconds on a 2 minutes road track.
This is not about brand loyalty and fanboys delusions, it is about understanding cars.
The shameless marketing paid by Nissan is disgusting…
True cars lovers please chime in!
How about all of us once young kids who bought 240-Zs way back and loved them and now want something faster and with a little more room?
Oh and by the way…we can afford this car now, and it makes ALOT more sense to our spouses than a GT-3 or a Corvette.
Come to think of it…..it makes alot more sense to me as well AWD,trunk,ect.
So I just stumbled onto this site from a link off of Audiworld (where I’m still a troll having sold my B5 S4 over a year ago, as it’s easily the best car forum in existence for a number of reasons, but I digress). While this argument smacks of sarcastic and a fantastic sense of humor – it isn’t without merit. I certainly agree on all points (except the gran turismo argument… I’ve owned the game in each of its iterations, and I’m at the ripe age of 21).
Though, I think you’re all missing one thing — holy hell the GT-R is ugly! Granted, I haven’t seen one in person as of yet, but I can’t see it getting drastically better than the hundreds of photos I’ve seen in my five or so major car mag subscriptions. It might be the ugliest sports car (or grand touring? can’t quite recall the configuration of that monstrosity at the moment) in recent history. I’ve been hopelessly obsessed with cars since I was two years old – porsche was one of my first words. To be sure, I might be biased – I love porsches and corvettes deeply, having stared at posters of the aforementioned cars every night before drifting off to dream about someday blasting around the ‘ring in anything I can get my hands on… whether that be a C4 ZR1, a GT3, some random 80’s 911 SC or whatever. But let’s be real for a moment: all of those cars are absolutely soul-stirring. Just looking at the car pulls you into the driver’s seat and dares you to fire it up and mash the accelerator down some back road. The GT-R will never do that for me. I couldn’t give less of a damn if it costs half of the price a new base-model 911.
At any rate, I’m not in any way convinced that it will be faster around a track than a Z06 — that thing is just plain unholy – especially with some stickier rubber.
Nissan clearly won’t be able to continue producing this car for just the reasons mentioned above. The 350 will easily be the next SLK/Z3 in terms of attempted manliness — it’s about to be Nissan’s official chick-car (my apologies to fellows above that own them… but I don’t quite understand that decision either… how can you stand that sentra interior and gawdawful exhaust note?)
Anyhow, to the author: you’re hilarious, and spot-on. With this article alone, you’ve gained another soon-to-be-faithful reader.
I just put 1,500 miles in six days on a GT-R–one of the six pre-pro examples in the country–and I’m totally in agreement with Jack Baruth. Very prescient post, since he didn’t even get a chance to drive one. I did, and walked away from it thinking, “I’m glad I don’t own this car.”
This is the early-21st-century Acura NSX, and I assume we all remember where that sweetie went. Orthodontist Land.
i agree w the dude that said our spouses can agree on the GTR vs the GT3 or vette….its kinda hard to have a trunk full of groceries in those cars…not much room…hey honey, can i purchase a $120,000 sports car, please?…..if you don’t enjoy sleeping on the couch for a year…just buy the GTR….sure it doesnt look as “sporty”….but the prius is an ugly bastard and i know people who laugh at us gas guzzlers in our “neat-o” lookin sports cars….practicality people…practicality…besides half of you posting in here can’t even afford a car like either of the 3 ever in a million of your lifetimes…
This post is exactly right.Most of the Skyline’s fanbase is a bunch of kids that pay gran turismo and watch fast and furious movies.And It’s doubtful many of them will be able to afford them.And I love how Nissan puts out claims just out of the blue,I liked them before,but now they’re starting to seem like a bunch of BS.And all the fanboys talking about it will whoop this and that,I haven’t seen any actual skylines around whooping on anything,I’ve just heard claims from magazines that the GT-R owns everything,which is probably a load too.So until I actually see one and what It can do,I’m not believing shit nissan says about it.The older GT-R’s were never hyped like this because they didn’t need to be,they proved themselves and people actually owned them,the new GT-R,not so much.The Z06 was underrated and dissed just about everywhere I went and look at it now.And since when did good performance cars weigh 3800 lbs and have AWD?
This post is exactly right.Most of the Skyline’s fanbase is a bunch of kids that play gran turismo and watch fast and furious movies.And It’s doubtful many of them will be able to afford them.And I love how Nissan puts out claims just out of the blue,I liked them before,but now they’re starting to seem like a bunch of BS.And all the fanboys talking about it will whoop this and that,I haven’t seen any actual skylines around whooping on anything,I’ve just heard claims from magazines that the GT-R owns everything,which is probably a load too.So until I actually see one and what It can do,I’m not believing shit nissan says about it.The older GT-R’s were never hyped like this because they didn’t need to be,they proved themselves and people actually owned them,the new GT-R,not so much.The Z06 was underrated and dissed just about everywhere I went and look at it now.And since when did good performance cars weigh 3800 lbs and have AWD?
Do you still feel this way?
I brought a Nissan 370Z to Cars and Coffee in Irvine recently and I was surprised that about 75% of the folks who came over to ask me about it, said they would rather have the 370Z over the GT-R…
Hey Jeff,
I think that here in America, the Z simply resonates much more strongly than the GT-R. Why that's so, I couldn't tell you, but I do agree with you.
I truly enjoyed my time in the 370Z and I think its a fantastic car (any ANY price point)… but I was blown away by the GT-R. It is highly possible that my experience was heightened due to my lack of true driving skill (compared to the writers of S:S:L – you guys are good) and the GT-R allowed me to really experience spirited driving without every feeling out of control.
Sidenote GT-R related: I got to go for a ride with Steve Millen in his GT-R, which is being prepped for the Targa Newfoundland, and that car is going to be a monster…
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